submission, masochism and self harm

I had a new comment here to an earlier post about submission, pain and masochism on A Kind Dom recently:

Pet said...

Sir,

Is this comment a bit late? I'd like to mention I love the way you wrote... That may seem odd, but I have a writing fetish (not sexually... :P) Either way, I wonder about your ideas on submissives and masochists. I've known that I'm submissive for far too long, but I've only recently realized that I might be a masochist as well.

This is something that bothers me, not because I feel uneasy with my own preferences, but because I'm not sure whether or not I am one, and I don't really understand the difference that well. I do know that when I get lonely or my emotions pile up I sometimes turn self-destructive. I'd hurt myself just to release my pent up energy. Is that a masochistic thing, or do I just have mental problems?

Needless to say, I feel a bit confused. I hope you could clear this dilemma up for me?

Sincerely, Pet.

It was kind of Pet to write kindly about my writing and I thank her for that. However her comment raises a number of issues and I would like to reply properly to her here.

I do think there is a distinct difference between submission and masochism. I wonder if submission is more in the mind and masochism more in the body? Yes, I know that is much too simplistic. However the two do seem very distinct. Masochism may imply submission but there are many submissives who do not get off on pain at all. Their desire is to be controlled rather than hurt whereas a masochist's desire is to be hurt. There have been interesting discussions about this on A Kind Dom recently here and here.

I worry though about Pet's connection of masochism with self harm. That does seem to be something that I personally find negative. However is that the ultimate conclusion of masochism?

There was also another comment relating to masochism and self harm here.

I wonder what you the reader think? Do comment.

The power of writing to Uncle Agony ...

I recently solved a problem without even replying!

Well, to be fair the writer solved the problem all on her own. It was the writing itself that had the effect. I have written about it on A Kind Dom here.

When I wrote to ask her permission to publish her emails she replied so very respectfully and politely in reply to my request that I told her that once her husband got the hang of this Dom thing he would soon be calling her a "good girl". That made them both chuckle. I do hope they are having fun.

at a loss

I received an email a little while ago from C. She'd had a wonderful D/s relationship for many years that turned sour. I wrote about it on 'A Kind Dom' here where it received some very personal responses in the comments. The respondents clearly show that it is possible to develop a loving and fulfilling D/s relationship having come out of an abusive one.

However having separated from her Dom C is now finding it very difficult to meet a new Dom to tend to her needs. I reproduce her email in full here.

Dear Kind Dom!
Though I am not new to being a sub, I am new at having to find a dom.  I was in an 10 year relationship with a Dom who at first was the best Dom any sub could ever hope to have.  He inspired me to want to submit to him.  Then as the years went by, he became emotionally abusive. He made it increasingly difficult to meet his demands and I was punished more and more. He began abusing me verbally, and breaking our terms repeatedly until I had to leave before I lost every bit of my sense of worth.  That was the hardest thing I have ever had to do.  For years I felt lost.  I didn't date.  I feared that I couldn't judge my ability to stay away from that kind of abuse. I am at a point in my life where I have regained what I lost in that relationship, and I am ready to try again.  However, I have had a difficult time finding the right man.  I've run across so many that confuse being domineering with being a dominate.  I would like to find a dominate who realizes that my submission is a gift and would treat me with the kindness and dignity a human being deserves.  I want to once again feel admiration and that kind of deep respect you can only feel for a kind dom. How does a woman do that?  I've looked for munches or clubs or any meeting event near where I live.  Most seem shady at best - more like swap meets.  Others are no longer functioning.   Can you please give me some advice as to how to start?

Hopeful in Modesto,
C

My reply was as follows.

I am not sure whether having been in a ten year relationship, that at least at first was good, makes it easier or harder for you in your search for a Dom.  On the one hand you have wisdom and knowledge of what a good D/s relationship can be (and what it should not become). However it may leave you very high standards and expectations that a new Dom may find it hard to meet. It may be difficult to find someone who can meet your appropriately high standards.

You have the added problem of having suffered abuse and the trauma that comes from it. The fear of that happening again may haunt you and prevent you developing the trust that is essential in any D/s relationship.

And then of course you have the same problem of many women in just finding a compatible and caring man. How does one do that? You have tried the obvious answers such as clubs, munches and events. You are right to be careful of and avoid those that seem shady or seedy when that is not what you are looking for. I wonder if you have searched further afield using the internet - such as Fetlife, etc.? It might be that a more distant friendship developed there or through blog contacts might lead to something more in the longer term.

Or perhaps readers may have better suggestions.

So readers - do you have other suggestions? Coming out of any long term relationship and starting again can be very hard. It must be all the more so in terms of a D/s relationship and in finding a new Dom. Are there any tips also for finding munches and events that are not "shady". 

"My husband cannot begin to be the man I need ..."

Anonymous wrote a comment here on the previous post. Soon afterwards I received an email from her which I publish with her permission.

Hi. I came across your Uncle Agony blog this afternoon. It was about having a Dom and husband separately. I am not certain that you are interested in my email but if I don't talk to someone, I think I'll run mad. Who better to fill that need than a stranger I suppose. Well enough stalling, here goes nothing. I am 50 and have been married for 8 years. I have not had sex with my husband or anyone else (except myself) for 6 years. I am faced with the fact that I have to stay with my husband for my child's sake (at least for the foreseeable future) but can't bear the thought of my husband's quick, weak fumbling's. I have recently been exposed to BDSM through books and have awakened to the fact that I think I am beginning to yearn for a Dom and am becoming obsessed with the idea of being dominated. I am scared of these feelings because I have always taken care of myself and been the dominant one. No man has been strong enough for me or allowed me to submit. I have only ever had an orgasm by my own hand and am despondent that I will never have an orgasm by a man and never know how it truly feels to be with someone who understands my darker (and as I am finding out) kinkier feelings and can take me to the place my mind and body need to go. I don't want to lie to anyone but have been lying to myself for years I guess. My husband cannot begin to be the man I need but I must be the mother my son needs. That leaves me entirely out of the equation.

I really don't mean to lay this at anyone feet but just being able to say it (or in this case pen it) helps to relieve the intense ache that has taken root in me.

I hope you will write if for no other reason than I will know I'm not crazy. I understand if you think I already am crazy and don't write.

Yours,

B

I have had a number of online friends who have found themselves in a similar position. I wrote back to her telling her of them, their different solutions and my own struggles in the past. I discussed the issues for her as a mother. I also reassured her that she was not crazy!

However the fact that there may be many others who sadly are in similar situations where they feel unfulfilled may be of no consolation to her. She will need to find her own way. I wonder if there are others among you out there who may give her hope though describing how you have resolved this same issue in your own lives? Or you may have strong views from a different perspective.

There are the dangers too as someone who is just becoming aware of certain feelings in beginning to explore them safely. How can one find someone who will not take advantage of her newness and vulnerability and instead seek to help her blossom?

Do add your advice for B in the comments.

Can I have my Master and my boyfriend at the same time?

I received an email from C. She wrote:

Hey

I have a problem and it's driving me a little bit crazy

I was someone's submissive but our relationship had to end due to something out of our control. It was horrible and when I got round to dating people again, I fell for a more of a normal guy. He is slightly dominant in the bedroom and likes that I'm submissive. But it isn't the same... I love being with him but there's a kind of empty feeling because I miss being a sub. I don't cheat on people. So basically I want a way that I can have my boyfriend and my Master at the same time and no-one gets hurt... this is giving me a headache and distracting me from my dissertation. Please help me. I'm not sure how. I feel like Jekyll and Hyde...

Thanks for listening
xx

I replied as follows:

Can you "have your boyfriend and a Master at the same time"? Can you have your cake and eat it? I'm really not sure but it seems fraught with difficulty. Are you talking about taking a new Master as well as staying with your boyfriend? Are you sure you will find a new Master easily? If you do, is your hope that they will each accept one another and be happy with you seeing each of them to meet your different needs? It sounds an ideal situation that I am sure many would like but I doubt that you will find that both your boyfriend and your Master will be happy with the situation.

Or are you thinking of keeping each secret from the other? You say you don't cheat on people so you would find it difficult and it would not be something I would recommend.

You say your boyfriend is slightly dominant in the bedroom. Can you discuss your needs with him and introduce him to D/s in the hope that he may be tempted to take it slightly further and become your Master? In the end I think you will need to decide whether your boyfriend can fully meet your needs and if he cannot then whether you accept that or decide to finish with him and look for someone who can.

Though I know there are readers of this blog who have managed to develop separate relationships with a Master and a husband or boyfriend. Perhaps one of them may comment and let us know how they managed to arrange such a situation.

These are just my thoughts and you will need to find a way through this that works for you.

Thanks and good luck

So - do any readers have a separate partner and Dom? How did you arrive at such an arrangement? How do you keep it working? Can others see how it might be made to work?

taking the lead

J had been reading an earlier post on Uncle Agony, "brand spanking new to the D/s world". Reading it stimulated him to write an email of his own to Uncle Agony.

About two months ago my wife suggested she wanted me to "take the lead" in our sex life.  For the entirety of our marriage she's clearly been the stronger personality and the driving force in many areas of our family and our household and for the last several years I've complained about the frequency, or lack thereof that we are intimate together.

By nature she is not a submissive person and when we started this she told me that she would likely push back.  While she has not explicitly admitted to me that she is testing me I do feel like she tests me to see if I'm willing, and able to actual take the control from her when she is unwilling to release it.  There have been times I've attempted to seduce her into the bedroom but these have ended badly, and now I wonder if she wants to be taken and ravished, not seduced.

I briefly suggested she try to find ways to tap into her submissive side but she's reluctant to do so and instead suggested I find ways to have the confidence to take control and establish myself in the dominant role.  What I inferred from this is that since submission is not a natural trait then the specific aspect that is arousing to her is the act of being made to submit, despite any resistance she may exhibit (similar to the comments by wild cat and how she wants to be tamed, regardless of the growl).

My wife does not like the theatrics of bondage or restraint.  Instead what she's looking for is that carnal desire that is so strong it cannot be stopped (the caveman, or Bedroom Bull depending on what other blogs you read).  She wants me to take control of the When, and not focus on the What that may occur.  Once I've established my role, and put her in her place, then we can potentially move onto other components of a D/s relationship.  

Due to external life circumstances we're in a bit of a holding pattern until we can progress this further, but I'm hopeful that the next opportunity will end different and result in a step forward rather than two steps back.

Any advice you or your readers can offer would be helpful and welcome.

I responded with the following thoughts.

Putting together some of the parts of your email where you describe clearly what your wife has intimated does lead one to the conclusion that she may indeed want you to play the "caveman" role. She suggested you "take the lead" in your sex life. She seems not to like to be gently seduced. She has suggested that you "find ways to have the confidence to take control and establish myself in the dominant role."

You have also made some inferences but not made clear how strong is the evidence for them. For instance you say she is "looking for ... that carnal desire that is so strong it cannot be stopped" and that she "wants me to take control of the When, and not focus on the What that may occur." How sure are you of this. How explicit has she been?

The difficulty here seems to be communication. I think if you truly know that you have permission to completely take control and initiate sex at your direction, expecting her to comply and not taking "no" for an answer then it is up to you to make a move. However - and it is a big "however" - how do you know that you really have permission? You need to be very clear about the level of consent from your wife to any forceful acts from yourself otherwise you are heading for deep trouble. The problem is that your wife may find that even having that discussion and giving her consent puts your wife in the situation of feeling she is still in control when she really wants you to take control.

I think you have two courses. The first is to try to have an open and honest conversation with your wife about this to ensure there are no misunderstandings. You could even agree that "no" does not mean "no" but have a safe word which you would always respect.

The only alternative that I can suggest is to start to try to take control over the initiation of sex in small steps, being increasingly more assertive and see how things develop. It might be that this gradual approach pays dividends in the long run.

Like you though I would love to hear others' views of this - both women and men.

So what do you think readers? Perhaps you may have some different advice.

breaking up and after care

I had a surprising email from a sub yesterday  She said that she and her Mistress had broken up. It was at her Mistresses instigation. However her Mistress was insisting on a six week period of after care.

The Mistress had to "repair" the submissive so that the sub would not be "dysfunctional". This involved a whole series of rituals as well as vanilla meetings. The submissive is going through with this even though she finds it a sadistic torture. She is doing it because she feels that her ex-Mistress needs it.

She asked me for some insight. Did I believe there needed to be a kinky rehabilitation after a dominant based relationship? What did I honestly think?

Well to be honest my first reaction was that it was bonkers.

However on further thought I wondered if the Mistress may have been trying to behave responsibly. D/s can involve a lot of conditioning. The sub is conditioned to behave and respond in certain ways. There can be deep psychological needs that are created within the D/s dynamic which can be all the stronger if reinforced though extreme BDSM play. Where this is the case then some additional support over and above that needed for the break up of a vanilla relationship might be appropriate. A kind of de-conditioning if you like.

Has anyone else come across this before? Or even been involved in it from either side. What do you think? Is it "bonkers" or a caring support to maintain a submissive's psychological health?

I would be fascinated to hear what you think.

sub drop

I had a concerned email recently from C. After some introductory words she came to her problem,

Well to fast forward to my problem. I had my anus and vagina both severely stretched and fisted and was cropped and flogged in a session. My session lasted almost three hours and my beautiful Ma'am dismissed me to rest and to let herself rest too. At the time I didn't feel like I needed to rest. I was awake and hyper and excited and just happy in general. Less then an hour later I was so tired I thought someone smuggled rocks in my pocket and called it an early night.

The next day I was just very distracted. I had a hard time focusing on anything and just kept to myself, I felt very numb. I was freezing cold and not very hungry. I was very lonely. I never came down from playing so badly before. My poor Ma'am was busy the next day and un able to be with me but texted and called as much as she could. Unfortunately life happens. She is NOT irresponsible. Just neither of us expected such a response. This session was fairly mediocre in the sadism we normaly practice. I know the people in this community are very black and white with how a good Dom/me should behave. But no one is perfect and this is NOT abuse in our case. This is just bad luck.

Just in case I have a severe reaction again during play, is there a way I can implement after care to myself if Ma'am should have a delay in being with me?  She felt so terrible and she is a very good Domme and a career person and just amazing. If I don't have to be a source of pressure I would rather not be. She was called away on a very important family issue. I want to be able to be self maintained until she can come back to me so I am not a source of worry but pleasure for her. Thank you for your time.

Unfortunately this came to me before Christmas when I was also very distracted by serious personal developments so my responses have been a bit hurried and incomplete. Certainly I have not been able to give this problem the careful and thoughtful response that I would have liked. I have tried to put together here the essence of my reply

I would like to reassure you that what you have experienced is quite normal. What is often referred to as "sub drop" often occurs and can be delayed rather than happening straight away. You had a very intense experience and it is to be expected that you might have physical and psychological responses to it. Basically you were experiencing delayed shock.

I do hope that you are well and that you have not had any repeats of your unfortunate experience. You said that you often indulge in play that may be more extreme - "This session was fairly mediocre in the sadism we normaly practice." So perhaps it is worth trying to think about what might have been different in this session from usual.

You mentioned that immediately afterwards you were, "awake and hyper and excited and just happy in general" and that you did not need to rest even though that had been instructed by your Domme. You mentioned that she needed to rest also afterwards and left you to rest. I wonder perhaps if this might not be good practice. Even though you seemed really okay afterwards - helping you come down from this high and getting you settled is perhaps an integral part of the play and should be incorporated into future play. 

I am not being critical of you or your Domme - just trying to explore possibilities with you that you may be able to learn from. Even if this had happened it is quite possible that you might still have experienced the delayed "drop".

I of course accept your assurances that your Ma'am is very responsible. However you may both be able to learn from this experience and recognise the level of after-care that may be required and that it is not always just that necessary immediate after-care.

Good Luck!

I also found a few useful links to sub-drop to incorporate.

I am hoping that I may have readers who can speak of this though from their own experience and offer support and advice in comments below.